Grand Banks Schooner .

Well it had to come someday and I think I'm there now at my" Last model boat"  , and I have been so absorbed in the Gaff rigged Cutter I completed I have decided it will be a Sarik version of Armstrongs" Grand Banks Schooner "which appeals to my new found love of sailing models and the challenge it presents , but mine will have an auxiliary motor fitted [ just in case the wind dies off ] and a G/ F hull to be adapted to my needs .

She will be a challenge but one I am willing to take on , as like most modellers its the build that gives the greatest joy up until now.... which is  now finding the wind to sail on ....

Plans here and hull en -route I'm told , and the best bit is that the amount of bits I have accumulated over the years means that most of what I need I already have apart from a few bits of materials needed that have been used up along with some glues and paint so hopefully I will be clearing the decks of some gear as well , having said that we are a breed that will be forever repairing and fiddling with the model even when finished .......after all thats what refits are for is it not !

I had the sole destroying job of throwing away a lot of tools and materials I will never use again to make space to work in but it would have had to have been done at some stage so now its done , and ready to stroll up to the finishing line 

Beaut!

Many thanks Swab , but I hope to build one like it .....thats not mine , but posted it so that you knew what I was waffling on about , but I concur .....she is a Bute

I built the billings blue nose schooner years ago as a static model and left it with the ex wife so she's lost forever. I've just done a search of grand banks schooners  so I know you've been asking about it on mayhem but I'm persona non grata and can't see pictures. If that's what you're aiming at post pictures on here I'd like to see your build.

Hull came today so fitted 1" steel tube in keel which will have separate keel bolted to underside on protruding bolts and I have epoxied it into the bottom of the internal keel 

The items to be fitted are being "Sized up" for fitting , but looking at it I will have to cut a semi circle out of the base where the rudder will be fitted to so that the "Prop" ,can rotate correctly ......time will tell eh ? all of which will be interesting me thinks .....

This is beginning to look like a shoe horn job so I am glad there are cabins on the deck , but at the moment having just received the hull I'm thinking it will be more like a tower block to accommodate it all .......but hey thats the fun of modelling eh 

Today has been a busy day in marking out where I need to cut the hull to accommodate the propeller and rudder fittings which as they are not original need to be decided on and then treble checked before cutting 

I n the last model the motor was sited well forward which worked our well so I took the same approach on this model which meant a longish prop shaft and rummaging through my resident motors decided on which one and then set about checking if it will all fit in 

Looking at the deck layout I felt that all the "Kit" would all fit in [with a little poetic license] so having decided what kit was being used it was a case of checking that they all functioned  and that the prop shaft length was correct , the later I managed to do be utilising some stock brass tube and utilising some of th e bronze bearings out of serviceable "spares" and having cut the tube stock to the correct length made up the shaft assy required 

Decided on a 1 1/2 "   brass three blade prop in stock , so cut a 2" semi circular hole in the rear of the lower stern .to accommodate it and then lose fitted them and temporarily aligned them all and marked out the fitting sites in need of work 

Next job was to fashion a rudder shaft and bend it to the correct shape to allow a rudder plate to be fashioned and fitted to it....... bearing in mind the addition of the prop to the rear of  the stern  then cut down a short prop shaft to act as a sleeve for the rudder shaft and tacked it in place 

So that was most of todays work along with timber infill in the lower hull fibre glass profile to both beef it up and where required to offer a fixing strata to fit to ...........now wether I coat all this in resin to make it more substantial is still open to question 

So off to the lake tomorrow  morning with "Pellew" which I renamed the French lobster / gaff rigged cutter assuming the weather holds 

About time I updated you all so here is the current state of build as at last week end ......

Coming along nicely Ivor

Barrie

This is the state of play as of today , and although not a race the progress has been hampered by health issues and deciphering detail to hand , but getting there bit by bit .

barriew wrote:

Coming along nicely Ivor

Barrie

Thank you Barrie , you were in my thoughts whilst typing the last past sympathising on others problems as we get older .......

I'm impressed by the speed this is coming along can't wait for the rigging stage as I've been pithering about trying to get my yacht correctly adjusted.

Well a brief update on the build programme ,I have now completed the masts , booms, Gaff booms , bowsprit etc , and  today I started the deck planking so that will keep me busy for a few days at least , for which I bought some 8mm x 1mm Maple strips to cover the micro ply decking .....  and started fabricating a keel attachment out of an adjustable threaded 10mm bar and some odds and sods and a section of a 4kg  dive belt weight .

The reasoning behind this is to establish what kind of weight and position in which to place it which once determined can be tided up and made a bit more presentable , as it stands at present it is about 800mm long and has about 3kg of lead fitted to it .

The weight's I use are [ so far] fitted to bolts through the keel [ bearing in mind the plan shows a 300x25mm sq steel tube fitted inside the FG hull ] and these are drilled through and the device is retained by "R" clips treaded through the holes .

I devised this system from odds and sods and  it works very well on my Gaff rigged pilot cutter . so more than happy to use it again , and the additional mast hight and extra top sails will , I feel, need a suitable counter balance to be able to sail safely in my inexperienced hands .........

I tried to upload a picture but it seems to be to big , so perhaps I will be lucky next time

Today saw the completion of the deck planking , which is now stained Oak and had two coats of varnish , and the inner face of the bulwarks have been painted Bermuda blue , and the hull [ not yet painted] will be a darker blue 

The next step will be construction of the deck cabins and fittings , which will be slightly different from the "Grand Banks" layout but along similar lines to suit the equipment now installed in the hull .

Todays progress , and as promised a picture of progress ........getting there bit by bit ......

Hi Ivorthedriver,
She is coming along nicely.
Great work.
I will be following this build.

Thank you Marten for your kind comments , much appreciated .

I took her to the club lake on Sunday to give the hull a through water check and to run the motor / rudder set up and all went very well , so getting towards the fitting out stage now and then painting of the hull then the sails and rigging to complete her .

REMINDER :- must ask Tiger Tiger what the weight of his drop keel bulb weighs in at ?......

Hi Ivor,
I would be interested to know how you work out how much ballast you need on a sail boat.
Or is it done the same way as ballasting a normal boat ?

Also how do you work out how long the drop keel has to be.?

As you can tell i know nothing about sailboats.

dont put yourself down Marten we al have to learn somewhere and this is only my second sailing model.  

Well It depends on what type of vessel to a large extent , in so much as powered craft I have built the waterline can normally be found from photographs and transcribed to the hull .......

                                                                       OR

Once in the water.... comparing the as built with the actual and compromising is the way I tend to judge it although I am sure you will now be  swamped with how others do it.... correctly 


Failing  that I go along with your signature line.  " If it looks right it probably is"

As for the drop keel and you are a member of a club ask your fellow members or do what I do ....ask those with greater knowledge than yourself , failing that a bit of T + E .......TRAIL AND ERROR

Thank you Ivor,

I did not know if the length of the keel had anything to do with the amount of ballast required.
I don't mean the weight of the keel less the weight.
Perhaps the length is just to stop the boat from rolling over ?

I am probably not explaining this properly.

As your model would normally have the weight in the keel if it were the full size boat.
when a strong wind blows it would just heel over.

If you did the same and just put the weight IN your model it would probably get blown over.
So i am now assuming it is because you cannot scale down the wind hence the weight at the bottom of a longer keel.

I think i might of just answered my own question LOL!!!

Well I made a fair few scratch built warships using a FG hull's from R Dean and proceeded to build the specific type I wanted and when basin trials occurred she did have a tendency to roll badly [ exactly the same as the original type 15 Frigate did HMS TROUBRIDGE ]  , so the answer there was to drill through the central part of the hull and epoxy an ingot of lead beneath the hull  [ along the centre line ] and when put back in it went like a dream as the "Ballast" so beneath the hull line and counterbalanced the plasticard superstructure fitted above .......so not as daft as it seems Marten 

The same applied to the model of HMS MANXMAN

  Historically wooden hull's  in our Navy had stone ballast as well as Pig iron spread across the inner hull and when loading the ship the positioning of the cargo had to be spread out to gain the correct trim before the ships master would sail , so as I say not a daft question at all 

The art of modelling is blighted by modellers who whilst making excellent scale models try to sail them all at the speed of an MTB and NOT TO SCALE pro rata 

this is spoken of in a book I can not recommend enough " Scale sailing Models" by Phillip Vaughan Williams  in which he reiterates the same fact

Hi Ivor,
I totally agree about scale speeds.
I have seen some really fantastic scale warships that skate across the lake/pond like a rocket.

A point to bare in mind here  Marten is that with a ballast bulb fitted to the keel of a sailing boat beneath the keel... asserts leverage on the model when suspended 300mm beneath the keel ...causing leverage and assisting the buoyancy in a pendulum effect , and this in turn prevents the sail area from capsizing the boat in a strong wind  

"Pellew" the Pilot cutter model [gaff rigged ] has a2kg bulb and sails well with her top sail fitted , and at this stage the Schooner will have a 3kg [ due to the larger sail area carried ...................................

Excellent, I understand now thank you.
I did say i knew nothing about sailboats LOL!!
Looking forward to your next update.

When in the past I have embarked on a model and posted my humble efforts on a Forum it seems to attract those who just like the "Lake side Expert" would have done it this way or not included that etc etc , so far on this Forum they seem to have avoided me ........I'm pleased to say .

Those who have known me a long time quickly learn that I enjoy the build and the research more than the use of it on the water , and with one exception the largest off the shelf item is the " Hull"  ! .....and the rest was fabricated by my self having looked at what it is and then fabricated it .

This is the challenge to me...... certainly not following the makers instructions and to date they have all returned the effort ten fold , so can't be doing to many things wrong  

This model is no exception and if you are looking for perfection you will soon be disappointed and move on .

This hull and the scant detail supplied on the partly legible  plan seems to have seen me coning , but as always I look around and find what info I need or adapt the plan to supply my needs .

In this case the info is mainly from the Web and people like "The Suburban boat builder" who turns out wonderful kit models which he to adapts when he finds inaccuracies and puts his work on the web [ baring in mind he has all the mechanical aids in his workshop which enables him to adapt to his whims ,  unlike me with my hand tools........ so not that different from me just turns out a better looking model 

Today is a case in point , the hull showed a different mast configuration and the absence of trestle trees and spreaders which I found and fabricated on two other sites 

Why am a mentioning this  ......simply to explain how I Personally build ......MY MODELS  ......and to point out that you don't need to be afraid of instructions or format and if you wish to wander of the straight and narrow and add something YOU feel should have been done .......do it ....

Hi Ivor,
I agree, the way i look at it when building some of my models is it is my model and i make it look how i want it to look.
I can also work to scale as and when i need to.
As you will see with my 'MOJO' build i tweet things to how i want them to look.

As for your Schooner i think it is looking great.
Keep up the good work.

This weeks progress , due to commitments elsewhere , getting closer to the dreaded rigging scenario , but reasonably confident , subject to further buoyancy / ballast check tomorrow 

Hi Ivor,
She looks like she has had a splash of paint.

Do you plan on painting a waterline on her ?

I assume that is the bolt on keel on the table.
Not being streamlined will that effect the handling ?
Is it a temporary Keel ?

Martin.

Hi Marten ,
 yes the hull had a rattle can coat of Burmuda blue and the internal bulwarks light blue .[ handrail will be dark brown ].

Yes she will have a waterline once the weight has been determined tomorrow with all masts fitted [ but not sails ]

Yes once I have determined the actual waterline the weights will be reconfigured and more streamlined once the weight is known 

The screwbottles on the sides of the hull will be connected to deadeyes and ratlines which will allow the mast assy's to be dismantled and the sails attached to each mast [ as shown on the bowsprit ] to aid transport ............

Regards Ivor .

excellent Ivor.

She is looking better each time i see your updates.
Keep up the good work.

Martin.

Thanks for the encouragement Marten , I have been sorting out material for the pending gigging onslaught , but this time I won't be installing a full set of working rigging , more a display of gigging fixed in a rigged state , as its my intention to have the masts detached for transit spread over the masts .
Thanks for looking in though 

Martin you're right this looks better and better as it goes on. Ivor I'm really looking forward to seeing this one sail its a manageable size as well.

its alright for you youngness  but us old fogey's have to pace ourselves young lad , [excluding drinks of course ] todays issue !

I need to be able to de-mast the Schooner to ease transit and storage room and looked at Pelican fasteners [ tad bulky ] screw bottles [ to fidley for arthritic hands] and have decided to go the route of stepped mast seats 

Reached this decision whilst pondering the ratlines and stays configuration and decided this is the best option 

The masts are housed in brass tubed down to the keel and stand a couple of inches above the deck so by raising the masts about  an inch and inserting a pin through the casing / mast base having drilled through the centre line , install all the rigging with the ratlines and shrouds on clips on the ends , when I need to transit I raise the mast enough to withdraw the pins and once lowered unclip each spring clip mast assy complete with respective booms / gaffs the problem is solved 

As the model is permanently fully rigged on this model its a case of a few minutes work re-cliping and raising the masts and inserting the mast pin in the same manner as you would on the bowsprit ......job done .............

All I have to do now is rig it out to suit he says 


The Schooner is now going to be christened " SEA WITCH ".....

Hi Ivor,

If the mast is pinned in place have you thought of round black elastic for stays ?

Martin.

Ivor
Name plates in the post tomorrow.
Barrie

Thank you Barrie , your a Gentleman , and a scholar , I will be in Shoreham next week and will add my donation to the lifeboat station there , many many thanks for your excellent assistance which is greatly appreciated kind Sir .

Martin555 wrote:

Hi Ivor,

If the mast is pinned in place have you thought of round black elastic for stays ?

Martin.

I did reply to your comment Martin but not sure why it didn't show ....

:- I now use black 2mm cord which I ran out of[ but Amazing will resupply soon ] and the treads are made by sewing black cotton through the ratlines and a touch of cy to hold in place .......back to my workshop now [ thats a posh word we use in Cambridge for the Garden shed ] catch you again later ..........

Ivor's boat on the water today at Cawcutts, Cambridge. He was luckier than I was - I forgot my transmitter

Barrie

Ivor,
Nice to see her in the water.
Looks good.
Well done.

Whats next LOL!!



Barrie,

Oops i bet you could of kicked yourself.

Martin.

Ivor that look great, a job well done.

Fred

She looks cracking she'll be nice under sail. I've never forgotten my transmitter but I have got to the pool with boat and radio but with the batteries still on the bench in the shed.

Been there done that , but leaving batteries at home .....no..... yet to try that , but wife so glad to have a peaceful morning she helps me load our car  


Good to be back on the Forum though.......thanks Barrie 

Not sure who can help me here but any idea where the waterline of this Schooner should be please ? 

Seems a daft question I know but the scant detail I have does not actually indicate the waterline other than a feint line under the bottom of the chain plate fitting midships ....

When I  "   floated my boat.  " recently with a 2 1/2Kg bulb weight attached that is exactly where she sat , which to me seems very low in the water .

I have yet to fit the sails ,which won't weigh much in know, I cant help but get a little uneasy especially as I extended  the hull flank gunwales a good 25mm higher than the moulded hull from Sarik 

She sits as pretty as a picture in the water with the bowsprit fixing plates at the bow above the water and the stern detail proud of the water when static , so no tell tale signs of note  

Hi Ivor
I know very little about sailboats.
So I don't know if this will help.
These pictures show that she is quite low in the water.
So looking at your photo she seems correct.

https://srcmbc.org.uk/2016/01/06/grand-banks-schooner/

Martin.

Hi there , , well tomorrow  will be either a happy basin trial , or a disaster .....

I'm off to the lake with the model and whilst not finished she has sails and odds and ends added to see how she performs [ and even a waterline to keep Marten happy. [ guessed not factual as still no response or detail been found , so placed where it looks pretty rather than actual . 

Hopefully our Barrie may be there to with his batteries in tact , and his lifeboat [ might be needed ]....

There is very little rigging detail and some help will be forthcoming from friends at the club who know more than me so hopefully disaster can be avoided 
The bulb weight has been adjusted and is currently 2.5 kilo's and I will be very nervous until I see how she performs and if all my hard work will not have been wasted .......this being my last model , would be a shame , but faint heart and shallow pockets are not the modellers happy lot ............

Hope your operation has proved successful Swab and you are now reaping the benefits from the pain you have had to endure to date ....


Stay safe and keep well mate ..............

Sorry Ivor - won't be there. The family have decided we are going out for Sunday lunch  I will be at Paxton on Tuesday with a bit of luck.

Barrie

Hi Ivor,
She looks fantastic.
You have done a great job.

The waterline/go fast stripe add's that extra touch of class.
Good luck with the trials and i hope you get the chance to take some photos of her on the water in full action.

Martin.

She's a beaut Ivor post some photos of her sailing. This can't be the last one there's always room for one more.
The operation went well but I only get 8 weeks sick pay which isn't enough so I'm back at work though I'm on light duties my boss is fine with that  but he's off with Covid his 2 in command is a lot less understanding - I'm beat!

I thought I was the only one with that kind of luck ! 

Never mind he will get his come uppance eventually 

I find a little liquid helps with the pain killlers usually the 60% proof is the quickest acting  


Hope things improve soon … kind regards Ivor

Well it managed to stay afloat and despite the fact that I was unable to hone the sail action it went well , and sorry about photos as It was difficult sailing and trying to take photos at the same time , but once my Guru has breathed on her I'm sure it will perform much better